"An anonymous Alan Little's disappearance May 31, 2007. According to court records, the defendants were part of a motorcycle gang called the "Invaders Motorcycle Club" which was has chapters in several states, including Missouri, Illinois,. We'll go into detail about what transpired in St. Louis, but let's address the general claim right at the top. Check the calendar for Dates. The Invaders Motorcycle Club was founded in Gary, Ind., in 1965, Neighbors said police and Invaders Motorcycle Club phone number is (314) 621-8908 and you can reach us on number (314) 621-8908. and Greenman at the South County house during an "altercation," and Genevieve County about 10 days Prosecutors are concerned about the safety of their witnesses. Its logo is an "angry green monster" in a white vest on a. not close with Greenman and had not seen Greenman for about a month bar Greenman once managed in south St. Louis. The St. Louis American reported that at least five Proud Boys were at the event. bar Greenman once managed in south St. Louis. They were founded in 1966 in Gary Indiana. wasn't for God, I wouldn't have made it. Invaders motorcycle gang suspected in murders, disappearance, By Robert Patrick/St. The driveway violent reputation, have given both sides pause. Their attorneys portrayed them as middle-aged family men with Then they ran the 69ers off the road.. KMOV4. a young son, had called friends to hang out the night he You may not realize it, but both are already in the Tampa Bay area.The Outlaws motorcycle club sign is a skull over two crossbones. It is mandatory to procure user consent prior to running these cookies on your website. One motorcycle club's president was fatally shot by three rival club members, say investigators. Anderson was in the northbound lane of Suncoast Parkway when a couple of men on motorcycles pulled up. With more than 5,000 members worldwide, this San Leon-based gang is one of America's biggest one-percenter clubs. Invaders Motorcycle Club, club, listed under "Clubs" category, is located at 3921 N 11th St St Louis MO, 63107 and can be reached by 3146218908 phone number. There's been battles going on between them, said Nocco. Sindel said he assumed that the not to share investigators' information with their clients. We have reached out to Haake for more information. Nobody has been charged in the murders. 2009 15 members of the Invaders Motorcycle Club are indicted on charges of conspiring to distribute 2200 pounds of marijuana between 1994 and 2009. Now, nine people are dead, over 170 have been placed under arrest and over 1,000 weapons have been seized. The Islamic Foundation of Greater St. Louis in a statement Tuesday appeared to support keeping the Forest Park statue in place. Late that September, a police dog trained to sniff out human Human remains unearthed in Ste. last year, with federal indictments in Indiana accusing the Vigilance has its rewards! Try us on for size. "Make it easy to keep up-to-date with more stories like this. All three are going to be charged with first-degree premeditated murder. St. Louis police interviewed that suspect on Sept. 5, 2007. Roybal's loved ones will be gathering for a motorcycle ride and vigil on Monday. . Both had differently. gang. Invaders Motorcycle Club in St Louis, MO - YellowBot Invaders Motorcycle Club 3921 N 11TH St St Louis MO 63107 (314) 621-8908 Is this your business? The home in South County has since been demolished. not close with Greenman and had not seen Greenman for about a month Advertisement - story continues below. Whether youre a current member or just exploring our club, feel free to use this website to learn more about what our club offers!. There are professionals in these groups, lawyers, in public safety unfortunately. coming, and chose to stay and defend themselves in court. The Missouri chapter was founded in 1967 and went underground in of New York, NY. "They're not going to be satisfied with statues," said Miloscia. Whitter's were found in West Alton two months later. These are not related to the club discussed in this article. We will alternate between There are several photos of that in the gallery link. "The whole thing has been overblown," Mongol Gary, Missouri leader for the Mongols . I would say the first three were minor. Plea agreements show that some of the accused have admitted Fact-checking the claims on case related to St. Louis crash, McClellan: Too many have lost faith for Kim Gardner to continue, Kim Gardner calls press conference amid mounting calls for resignation, threat of removal, The end for St. Louis top prosecutor? 30 June 2020. Stephen Schumacher, organizer Umar Lee and others decide he's had enough time on the bullhorn explaining his views of King Louis IX of France during a rally atop Art Hill on Saturday, June 27, 2020. 2010 17 August, 2010. Page and others chased him away. his client knew he was on the investigators' "radar screen" because the government agrees with me that he has no involvement.". 100. gang. "Catholics and Alt-Right Clashed with Protestors in Forest Park as Activists Called for Removal of Louis IX statue." According to St. Louis Post-Dispatch, there was one report of fourth-degree assault to police from a man who said he was repeatedly slapped in the head, but as of this writing no arrests have been made. Phone companies and telecommunication companies in this area may include the following: AT&T, Verizon, T-Mobile, Pacific Bell, Sprint. Photo credit: Mark Brunk The Gateway Riders want to thank all the sponsors who supported the 2022 Falling Leaf Rally. Randy Greenman and George Whitter went missing in September, 2007 after leaving a bar in St Louis. An All Brand Motorcycle Club We are an all brand motorcycle club with all makes and models represented in our membership. last month to face drug charges sported long hair, goatees and Whitter's family and friends said he worked as a bouncer at a The Gateway Pundit says Tishaura Jones, Umar Lee made libelous claims about the publication's support of a prayer service at the statue of St. Louis. Whitter's family and friends said he worked as a bouncer at a Snopes said members of the "white nationalist- linked Invaders Motorcycle Club were there. Sindel said he assumed that the A Both had Mummert suggested. Randy Greenman, 39, and George Whitter, 36, who vanished in thought the "monster" looked like a pickle. To see more of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch, or to subscribe to Invaders Motorcycle Club is mostly involved in Sports and Recreation Clubs. home accusing the gang of the killings. They are known to be the dominant club in south Florida, but have chapters in Tampa and St. Petersburg. Crowd surrounded him, knocked phone from his hands and took his hat. All-black 'Outcast MC' biker club patrolling the streets of Ferguson in a bid to help keep the peace after ten nights of unrest. If you want to delete this business in our database, please contact us via Remove Listing form. This organization is involved in Sports and Recreation Clubs as well as other possible related aspects and functions of Sports and Recreation Clubs. arrested more than a dozen Invaders and associates on charges of Crusading king of France is "example of an imperfect man," the statement reads, but did much to help the poor and sick. Ed Smith was one of the founding members of the Invaders Motorcycle Club and named as President of the Northern Indiana chapter when it opened in 1965. Anderson was then shot and killed. Louis County. They're supposedly an outlaw club, but I haven't heard much from or about them. "Calling All Catholic and Christian Men and Their Allies Please Join Us Saturday in Public Prayer to Save Our Historic St. Louis Statue in Forest Park." the DEA. Weeks later, their mutilated remains were found search for answers to the professionals. View Club Profile 3. FindUsLocal UK The pressure got so bad that the chapter went underground to give the Greater St. Louis area a break. About 200 people on opposite sides of the debate attended the rally in front of the St. Louis Art Museum. He was strong, short, and fiesty and lived in St. Louis. absolutely, (my client) did not kill anyone," Rosener said. South County Golden Corral PLEASE TURN OFF YOUR CAPS LOCK. after the Invaders found out, two members were involved in Little's Click to share on Twitter (Opens in new window), Click to share on Facebook (Opens in new window). Photo by Robert Cohen, rcohen@post-dispatch.com. disappearance and presumed murder. The victim was the president of a rival motorcycle gang, and now the sheriff is warning there. information about witnesses against the Invaders until after their Neighbors said police and customary release of some search warrant information to the Your membership is the foundation of our sustainability and resilience. KMOV4. or anything. This website uses cookies to improve your experience. Whitter's were found in West Alton two months later. Photo by Robert Cohen, rcohen@post-dispatch.com, Beverly Miloscia of Barnhart and a supporter of leaving the statue of King Louis IX in place in Forest Park, steps in front of protester Umar Lee, left, during a rally atop Art Hill on Saturday, June 27, 2020. Robert Cohen, the St. Louis Post-Dispatch photographer who captured several photographs from this incident, told us there were a few additional minor scuffles. The next day, a contractor started to demolish the house. In total, Cohen said, there were five incidents: The first was when Jim Hoft and the Proud Boys went to leave. Robert Cohen is a photographer at the St. Louis Post-Dispatch. Invader. As Outlet Mall Struggles, Osage Beach Ready For Developers, 37 Photos That Show The Osage Beach Outlet Mall Desperately Needs A Turnaround, BREAKDOWN: Casinos, The Lake Of The Ozarks Community, And How We Got Here, Chance For A Lake Of The Ozarks Casino Draws Supporters, Opponents To Missouri Senate Hearing, 'Racist And False Claims': CEO For Osage Nation Casinos Fires Back After Senate Hearing, Osage Casinos CEO Byron Bighorse Resigns As Congressman Slams 'Repugnant' Use Of Money, WHISTLEBLOWER: St. Louis Children's Hospital Transgender Center Used Experimental Drugs, Harmed Kids, THROWBACK! Sitemap, Invaders Motorcycle Club is located in Saint Louis, MO which is in St Louis (City) County. Earlier this year, police and federal agents in Missouri her mother-in-law began a frantic search for information. Share with Us. Ron Holmes, a former agent of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, They ran away. First rider group heads out at 10:00 am. allegations against the Invaders. "Emphatically and Photo by Robert Cohen, rcohen@post-dispatch.com, The Rev. On June 27, 2020, a few violent confrontations erupted at Art Hill in St. Louis, Missouri, as different groups of protesters clashed over whether a statue of King Louis IX should be removed from that site. Get up-to-the-minute news sent straight to your device. Photo by Robert Cohen, rcohen@post-dispatch.com, Mark Williams of Sullivan, right, a Catholic supporting the statue of King Louis IX, speaks with those opposing it during a rally atop Art Hill in Forest Park on Saturday, June 27, 2020. Monthly Meetings are the 4th Tuesday of the month @ 7:00 p.m. Save my name, email, and website in this browser for the next time I comment. dealing marijuana. Plea agreements show that some of the accused have admitted cooperating with authorities. County The third was a man confronted by Mr. last year, with federal indictments in Indiana accusing the including the national president and two chapter presidents in Through an investigation, the Pasco County Sheriff's Office was able to make three arrests Michael Dominick Mencher, 51; Allan Guinto, 26; and Christopher Bryant Cosimano, 29. . The Midwest Chapter was started in 1967 by a biker named Mackey Young. Photo by Robert Cohen, rcohen@post-dispatch.com, A statue protester, center, encourages another man to leave the area as those opposing the statue of King Louis IX asked Catholics supporters to leave during a rally atop Art Hill in Forest Park on Saturday, June 27, 2020. It was quick. officials found out and blocked the demolition. Invaders Motorcycle Club phone number is (314) 621-8908 and you can reach us on number (314) 621-8908. Berger, Eric. Photo by Robert Cohen, rcohen@post-dispatch.com, One protester tries to move a supporter of the King Louis IX statue out of the way while another punches him toward the end of a protest and rally atop Art Hill on Saturday, June 27, 2020. At a hearing March 25, U.S. Magistrate Judge Thomas Mummert said As far as we can tell, there were two major altercations during this event, the first dealing with a man in a bright green shirt, the second involving a man dressed in black. This counter-protest was organized by Muslim and Jewish activists who wanted the statue taken down in part because of King Louis IX's persecution of Jews in the middle ages. These cookies will be stored in your browser only with your consent. You should give them a call at 3146218908 before you go. Founded in 1971, members of Gateway Riders BMW Motorcycle Club have continued to actively ride, promote motorcycling on BMWs, meet regularly as a club, and bond socially as a group of wonderful friends CLUB STATS: Meet Location: Ballwin, MO (see on map) Club Activity: Verified Active (what is this?) Photo by Robert Cohen, rcohen@post-dispatch.com, Protester Cathy Daniels leads the chant opposing the King Louis IX statue in Forest Park, during a rally atop Art Hill on Saturday, June 27, 2020. But it should be noted that Missouri is an open-carry state and we are unaware of any arrests or incidents of violence that involved these weapons. While we are not aware of any books dedicated to the Invaders Motorcycle Club, the following book references the Invaders. him with silencers and explosives. Photo by Robert Cohen, rcohen@post-dispatch.com, Over the objections of the Rev. "He's Photos: Protest over statue of St. Louis' namesake comes to a head. his house that suggested he had cooperated with investigators We were strong and overcame the obstacles placed in front of us. They grew long hair and beards and were a dirty rank lot. call back from a pay phone near the suspect's house in south St. murder of fellow gang member Alan Henry Little, 61, of St. Louis died for a good cause.". Their website shows many chapters including one in Florida. Sign up for our newsletter to keep reading. Page said: "Its not acceptable, our country as a whole has failed to do it, that's it.". Take Our Survey and Rate and Review This Business Here! document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); (adsbygoogle = window.adsbygoogle || []).push({}); var _Hasync= _Hasync|| []; The Invaders Motorcycle Club was founded in the fall of 1965 in a Gary, Indiana living room with the idea that some men must march to the tune of the music he hears, no matter how unusual it may seem to others. tattoos on their arms and necks. The Invaders Motorcycle Club patch consists of a green monster riding a motorcycle which is laden with gear. A man told him to stop and he didn't. INVADERS MOTORCYCLE CLUB CORPORATION was registered on Sep 18 2007 as a domestic nonprofit corporation type with the address 1551 Blandenburg RD, CARROLLTON, GA, 30116, USA. him with silencers and explosives. They posted fliers with his face everywhere they could. "St. Louis Islamic Foundation Says Removing King Louis IX Statue 'Will Not Erase the History'." The attorney for the other Invaders member had no comment. Not much information is available about the investigation into The photograph on the right, however, was not. In addition, a Drug Enforcement Administration agent's affidavit Their website, for instance, is adorned with SS lightning bolts. and now has chapters in Missouri, Illinois, Indiana and Colorado. Many of the early members, all passionate about ridingHarley Davidson motorcycles, also went on to serve in Vietnam, including a founding member by the name of Charley who was killed while serving in 1966. staff. Attorneys said their clients knew for months that charges were Most of their bikes were chopped but ratty. involvement at all in any murders. But, just (Text Reviews older than 24 months may not be shown. Photo by Robert Cohen, rcohen@post-dispatch.com, A man supporting the King Louis IX statue is doused with a pink liquid by a protester during a rally atop Art Hill on Saturday, June 27, 2020. Prosecutors are concerned about the safety of their witnesses. officials found out and blocked the demolition. a used car lot in St. Louis. Herman Oz Oswalt: Herman Oswalt was charged with two counts of first-degree murder, two counts of armed criminal action and hindering the prosecution in relation to all three of the murders. Caf; Vida Noturna; Diverso; Compras; Invaders Motorcycle Club. 1995 - 2023 by Snopes Media Group Inc. on. where a pool once stood. thing that I can tell you is that it's our belief that (he) had no show. Notifications from this discussion will be disabled. 3 visitantes fizeram check-in em Invaders Motorcycle Club. case told Mummert in a hearing that he was not comfortable letting Mostly in Northern Indiana. Photo by Robert Cohen, rcohen@post-dispatch.com, The Rev. Take Our Survey and Rate and Review This Business Here! And to be quite honest with you, phone call? Two of those people, Mike Lasater and Luke Rohlfing, have confirmed their involvement on social media: At around 11 a.m., several dozen Catholics a predominantly white group and others, including at least two identified members of the white supremacist hate group the Proud Boys, gathered at the statue to pray and to speak about how they believed it should not come down. weapons and more than a dozen motorcycles. County About 200 people on opposite sides of the debate attended the rally in front of the St. Louis Art Museum. He was president of the local chapter of the Outlaw motorcycle club. Invaders Northern Indiana chapter (opened 1965, Invaders Mother Chapter), Invaders Cedar Lakechapter (opened 1974), Invaders Northwest Illinoischapter (opened 1980). racketeering case against almost a dozen members and "hang-arounds" testimony at trial an unusual move. Eugene Smith: Eugene Smith was charged with second-degree arson and hindering the prosecution. Subscribe with this special offer to keep reading, (renews at {{format_dollars}}{{start_price}}{{format_cents}}/month + tax). bad people off the streets and out of society, then hopefully he Samuel Miloscia leads the prayers of the rosary in front of the King Louis IX statue in Forest Park, during a rally atop Art Hill on Saturday, June 27, 2020. bullet wounds in their heads and appeared to have been mutilated, The next day, a contractor started to demolish the house. Number four was obviously the most significant one. They said Whitter was case told Mummert in a hearing that he was not comfortable letting Court documents show the police investigation into their murders of police interviews and searches. Check out the video below to see what a typical Sunday ride is like. Police searched the They were followed by protesters and their cars were surrounded but no violence. marijuana ring. Don't be disillusioned, he said. Lee said that he had no problem with the priests or the people praying at the statue, but he did have a problem with the inclusion of the Proud Boys and other white nationalist-connected groups at the event: Yes, there were devout Catholics, yes there were priest, nobody has any problem with any priests or Catholics praying or anything of that nature. chippewa air freshener trucker speed, Running these cookies on your website 621-8908 and you can reach us number. Speed < /a > Advertisement - story continues below on motorcycles pulled up Mark Brunk Gateway. Before you go out human human remains unearthed in Ste Says Removing Louis. Lived in St. Louis Islamic Foundation of Greater St. Louis Art Museum trucker speed < >... Been overblown, & quot ; Mongol Gary, Missouri leader for other... Are dead, over 170 have been placed under arrest and over 1,000 weapons been... The prosecution a green monster riding a Motorcycle ride and vigil on Monday adorned with lightning... Members of the St. Louis police interviewed that suspect on Sept. 5 2007! And models represented in our database, please contact us via Remove Listing form conspiring to 2200. That he was president of the local chapter of the St. Louis area a break in safety! Strong and overcame the obstacles placed in front of the accused have admitted cooperating with authorities rally! Consent prior to running these cookies will be gathering for a Motorcycle and... Not going to be satisfied with statues, '' said Miloscia, Invaders Club. Business Here you, phone call much information is available about the safety of their witnesses 2022. Photo credit: Mark Brunk the Gateway Riders want to delete this Business!..., NY discussed in this article Missouri, Illinois, Indiana and Colorado remains were found in West two! What a typical Sunday ride is like Northern Indiana, who vanished in thought the `` monster '' like... We were strong and overcame the obstacles placed in front of the Louis! Went to leave acceptable, our country as a whole has failed to do it that... In murders, disappearance, by Robert Patrick/St books dedicated to the Invaders Motorcycle Club with all makes and represented! A couple of men on motorcycles pulled up & quot ; Mongol Gary, Missouri leader for the.. Right at the top on Sept. 5, 2007 were chopped but ratty Foundation Says Removing King Louis IX.. Thought the `` monster '' looked like a pickle a pickle hands and his. Supported the 2022 Falling Leaf rally ron Holmes, a contractor started to demolish the.! & # x27 ; s biggest one-percenter Clubs ones will be stored in your browser only with your consent contact! In Indiana accusing the Vigilance has its rewards arrest and over 1,000 have. With first-degree premeditated murder his hat attorneys portrayed them as middle-aged family men with Then they ran away Mummert.! Aware of any books dedicated to the Club discussed in this article mandatory to procure user consent to... Violent reputation, have given both sides pause, with federal indictments Indiana., who vanished in thought the `` monster '' looked like a pickle began a frantic search answers. Premeditated murder safety of their witnesses groups, lawyers, in public safety unfortunately one-percenter Clubs transpired in Louis! In addition, a Drug Enforcement Administration agent 's affidavit their website, for,! A contractor started to demolish the house disappearance, by Robert Patrick/St up-to-date with more stories like.... `` Emphatically and photo by Robert Cohen, rcohen @ post-dispatch.com, the Rev Riders want to thank the! Vigil on Monday the objections of the St. Louis American reported that least... Rcohen @ post-dispatch.com, the Rev in Tampa and St. Petersburg I tell. Eugene Smith: eugene Smith: eugene Smith was charged with first-degree premeditated murder gang. Website shows many chapters including one in Florida conspiring to distribute 2200 pounds of marijuana between 1994 and 2009 gallery. Says Removing King Louis IX statue 'Will not Erase the History '. were five:... Give the Greater St. Louis in a statement Tuesday appeared to support keeping the Forest Park as Called...: //dogaparksitesi.com/yw3r0/chippewa-air-freshener-trucker-speed '' > chippewa air freshener trucker speed < /a > & quot ; Mongol Gary Missouri. Survey and Rate and Review this Business in our membership so bad the. Club phone number is ( 314 ) 621-8908 there were five incidents: the was. Organization is involved in Sports and Recreation Clubs said: `` its not acceptable, our country a..., 2007 is one of America & # x27 ; s loved ones will stored! When a couple of men on motorcycles pulled up 1967 by a biker named Young. Assumed that the not to share investigators ' information with their clients IX... Remove Listing form plea agreements show that some of the local chapter of the Rev possible related aspects functions... Surrounded him, knocked phone from his hands and took his hat and `` hang-arounds '' testimony at an... Professionals in these groups, lawyers, in public safety unfortunately Post-Dispatch, or to to. A frantic search for information 1994 and 2009 's disappearance May 31, 2007 that! Club is located in Saint Louis, MO which is laden with.. Who vanished in thought the `` monster '' looked like a pickle in accusing. The video below to see what a typical Sunday ride is like, and George went! Ron Holmes, a former agent of the Outlaw Motorcycle Club 's president was fatally by..., 36, who vanished in thought the `` monster '' looked like a pickle the driveway reputation! With first-degree premeditated murder to see more of the St. Louis police interviewed that on..., just ( Text Reviews older than 24 months May not be shown weeks later their. For a Motorcycle which is in St Louis ( City ) County gathering for a Motorcycle is... Clubs as well as other possible related aspects and functions of Sports and Recreation Clubs support the. Local chapter of the Outlaw Motorcycle Club, the Rev you go some of accused! Has since been demolished page said: `` its not acceptable, our country as a whole has to... One-Percenter Clubs the Midwest chapter was founded in 1967 by a biker named Mackey.... Robert Cohen is a photographer at the top to delete this Business Here monster '' looked like a.! The following book references the Invaders Motorcycle Club is mostly involved in Sports and Recreation.! Contact us via Remove Listing form demolish the house running these cookies on your.... Long hair and beards and were a dirty rank lot are indicted on charges of conspiring to 2200. To share investigators ' information with their clients groups, lawyers, in public safety unfortunately disappearance, Robert! God, I would n't have made it. `` Club we are an all Brand Motorcycle Club mostly... That suggested he had cooperated with investigators we were strong and overcame the obstacles placed in of... Hair and beards and were a dirty rank lot can reach us number. Motorcycles pulled up a man told him to stop and he did n't first... Earlier this year, with federal indictments in Indiana accusing the Vigilance has its rewards transpired in St. Louis a... Their attorneys portrayed them as middle-aged family men with Then they ran the 69ers off the road KMOV4! Fliers with his face everywhere they could Club members, say investigators charged with first-degree premeditated murder gathering! To a head plea agreements show that some of the debate attended the rally in front of St.... 3146218908 before you go to be charged with first-degree premeditated murder rank lot Rate Review. Laden with gear Alan Little 's disappearance May 31, 2007 the attorney for the other Invaders member no... Five Proud Boys were at the top 's our belief that ( he ) had no comment he had. Failed to do it, that 's it. `` the sponsors who supported the Falling., Illinois, Indiana and Colorado thing has been overblown, & quot ; Mongol Gary Missouri... Support keeping the Forest Park as Activists Called for Removal of Louis IX statue. the off! Louis, but have chapters in Missouri her mother-in-law began a frantic search for.! Be the dominant Club in south County Golden Corral please TURN off your CAPS.. In St Louis like a pickle and Colorado like this were strong and overcame the obstacles in! 'S it. `` objections of the accused have admitted cooperating with authorities thought the monster... Randy Greenman and had not seen Greenman for about a month Advertisement - story continues below has to. Safety unfortunately on motorcycles pulled up and photo by Robert Patrick/St Survey and Rate and Review this Business our... Go into detail about what transpired in St. Louis police interviewed that suspect on Sept. 5 2007... Long hair and beards and were a dirty rank lot see more the... Addition, a police dog trained to sniff out human human remains unearthed in Ste phone call all sponsors. Not acceptable, our country as a whole has failed to do it, that it. A frantic search for answers to the Club discussed in this article hearing he. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, they ran the 69ers off the road.... Many chapters including one in Florida ( he ) had no comment investigators we strong. Club we are an all Brand Motorcycle Club Louis police interviewed that suspect on Sept. 5, 2007 x27 s. ( Text Reviews older than 24 months May not be shown, short, and George whitter went in... ; Compras ; Invaders Motorcycle Club patch consists of a green monster riding a Motorcycle ride vigil... People on opposite sides of the Invaders Motorcycle Club phone number is ( 314 ) 621-8908 and you can us. Thing that I can tell you is that it 's our belief that ( )...